Meeting summary
Quick recap
The group discussed Suetonius's work on Roman emperors, examining its focus on gossip and personal character over substantive political content, and explored the differences between Greek and Roman civilizations, particularly in leadership and governance. They analyzed the reigns of various emperors, including Augustus and Nero, and discussed how absolute power often led to corruption, while also examining the historical accuracy of omens and legends surrounding figures like Julius Caesar. The conversation concluded with a debate about whether Suetonius's work should be considered a great book, considering its role as a primary historical source despite its focus on personal character and gossip rather than comprehensive historical analysis.
Next steps
- Clif: Send out invitations to nominate books for next year
- Clif: Provide links to guidelines and lists of books read in the past
- iPhone: Look up the name of the translator who did the Hebrew Bible in 3 volumes and send it to Clif
- Clif: Distribute the Bible translation information to the group once received
Summary
Suetonius's Focus on Gossip
Clif and Mallory discussed Suetonius's work, noting its focus on gossip and social scandals over substantive political or military content. Clif expressed surprise at the lack of detail regarding the Caesars' governance and questioned how Suetonius could verify Nero's authorship of his works. Mallory agreed, highlighting Suetonius's semi-exile as a context for his interest in court gossip, and both noted the contrast with Plutarch's biographies.
Roman Leadership and Power Dynamics
Clif and Mallory discussed the differences between Greek and Roman civilizations, noting that while Romans borrowed heavily from Greek art, philosophy, and literature, they developed distinct engineering and governmental systems. They explored the complexities of Roman leadership, particularly focusing on Augustus and Nero, and discussed how many emperors started with good intentions but eventually became corrupt. The conversation highlighted the theme of absolute power corrupting absolutely, with Nero serving as a key example of a ruler who began well but deteriorated over time.
Augustus and the Julio-Claudian Dynasty
Clif discussed the reign of Augustus, noting that he died peacefully in his bed and was succeeded by members of his family, the Julio-Claudians. He highlighted the power struggles and political maneuvering in ancient Rome, including the use of poison to eliminate rivals and the practice of forcing individuals to commit suicide to inherit their estates. Clif also touched on the extreme behavior of some emperors, such as Caligula, and the societal pressures that may have driven such actions. The group discussed how emperors often claimed to restore the Republic to gain popularity, despite the reality of their absolute power.
Roman Emperors and Public Control
The group discussed Roman emperors and their relationship with the population, focusing on how emperors maintained control through "bread and circuses" like games and free food. They explored how emperors used events like gladiator fights and chariot races to gauge public opinion and how some emperors were deified posthumously, though not always successfully. The conversation also touched on Roman beliefs in omens and how these were used to justify deification, with Clif explaining that deification was more like sanctification than actual divinity.
Julius Caesar's Omens Debate
The group discussed the historical accuracy of omens and legends surrounding Julius Caesar, with Mallory suggesting that many such stories might have been added or exaggerated over time, while iPhone argued that Suetonius, as a contemporary of later emperors, had access to reliable archives. They debated whether Caesar himself believed in omens, noting his disregard for auguries during his consulship, and discussed how omens might be perceived differently in the context of significant events. The conversation concluded with Ed reflecting on the challenge of reconciling modern skepticism with the historical accounts of events like Caesar's.
Suetonius's Portrayal of Julius Caesar
The group discussed Suetonius's work, focusing on his portrayal of Julius Caesar and the inclusion of rumors about Caesar's sexuality. Mallory noted that such rumors were prevalent during Caesar's time but questioned whether Suetonius believed them. Stephen expressed uncertainty about Suetonius's own beliefs and highlighted the challenge of determining the historical accuracy of rumors. The discussion concluded with a reflection on the inclusion of Suetonius's work in the "Great Books" curriculum, with Ed emphasizing its value as a first-hand account and a miracle of survival.
Debating the Greatness of 'The Twelve Caesars
The group discussed whether Suetonius's "The Twelve Caesars" should be considered a great book. iPhone argued that while it provides valuable historical information, it doesn't reach the level of greatness, as it doesn't contribute to ongoing literary conversations or debates like other great books do. Mallory suggested that the book's importance lies in its role as a primary historical source, despite not having the same lasting impact as works by authors like Cicero. Stephen questioned if they might be missing some of the book's value, possibly in how the portraits of the emperors refer to one another or comment on political ideas.
Suetonius's Roman Emperor Biographies
The group discussed Suetonius's work on Roman emperors, noting its focus on personal character and gossip, which made it challenging to read without background knowledge of Roman history. They debated Suetonius's motivations, with some suggesting he aimed to entertain or influence public opinion rather than provide a comprehensive historical record. The group also considered the accuracy of Suetonius's accounts, given the limited sources available to him. They agreed to read Madame Bovary for their next book, with Don planning to propose it for consideration.
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